Back to that again

Another post on the articles I found on science-fiction and feminism. If you haven't read them yet, refer to the last three articles first, please. The most recent comments there have clarified the issue quite a bit for me. Many thanks go to Arbitrary for his or her comments; and kudos on the ability to not rage about innacuracies in thinking.

From The War on Science Fiction and Marvin Minsky (fourth to last and the two last posts as of today)

Vicky Thorne November 26, 2009 at 8:21 pm
This is almost as bad as ’superheroes/comics are for boys! Since boys are the ones that want power! They are the ones that are agressive!’
Seriously, Pro-male/Anti-feminist Tech; get over yourself. Please. Remind me again how women have killed science-fiction? Science-fiction has a very loyal fanbase, as I’m sure you know, and I fail to see how because you are female you simply cannot like technology or science. Or that you must like romance. Romance is sappy. Science fiction is where all the good stuff comes out. Dystopias, social issues, how societies function, the possiblities of intellect…Tell me how it is impossible for me to like science-fiction, or be an intelligent human being with likes and dislikes and things I will not stand to hear.Perhaps there are more boys and men who read science-fiction and/or comics, but did you ever think it was because we actually enjoy it but people like you just love to kick us around and then say that we won’t stand for abuse that you aren’t taking because we have very slight genetic differences?

Arbitrary November 26, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Vicky, I am afraid you have completely missed the point; you seem to think that the thesis of this article is entirely reversed from its actual intent. The author (and I) have no inherent problem with women reading or writing science fiction. The problem is that science fiction, as a genre, has been warped to target women as an audience; no one here is claiming that all girls are purely interested in romance, or that girls are biologically incapable of expressing interest in male-targeted entertainment. The point of the article is that, in an effort to “be more inclusive of girls” (that is, to target them, being a more valuable audience), male-targeted science fiction has been crowded out of the marketplace.
It is because of these differences in targeting that the symptoms of these problems arise; shows focused on relationship drama and on advancing a social agenda (surreptitiously, not to be confused with confronting social issues) rather than the themes of man conquering nature (both his own and that which surrounds him) and allegories of philosophical and social problems.
I will not defend the claim that these targeting assessments accurately reflect viewer interests; I don’t have to. Regardless of whether they do, or do not (and I would assume that they do, given the amount of money riding on the issue), they are the assessments made by the industry. We are here expressing an interest that their desire to grab a female market (misguided or not) not crowd out the entertainment we are looking for.

Vicky Thorne December 3, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Thank you for clarifying the point, Arbitrary, the problem here is that the way the argument is presented seems to be saying that you and the author do not want women in science fiction in any way. I think your post should be added on the end as a edit to the article. It could very well stop the flaming that seems to be going on all through this comment thread.Anyhow, I completely agree with all your points, but it might perhaps be better to address these concerns to the industry instead of (perhaps seemingly)to feminists and women to prevent further misunderstandings.

From We Are All Misogynists Now

Vicky Thorne November 26, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Completely agreeing with you here that rampant feminism in which all people do is insult eachother is completly besides the point and unhelpful. However, what I’m seeing in this article is circular reasoning. The women/feminists have a knee-jerk reaction of shaming language to apparent misogyny and you are comparing them to ‘bleating sheep’ and Klansmen and Nazis. That is also shaming language. So shaming language is invalid… yet both sides are using it. Therefore that brings about the conclusion that neither side’s arguments are valid; so everyone needs to shut up and go home and not come out until they can think of something comstructive to say which does not involve insulting people.

Arbitrary November 26, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Vicky, you’ve again not accurately read the article presented.
The article is not comparing feminists to Klansmen or Nazis. It’s saying that feminists use the label “misogynists” on men to try to make them seem equivalent to Klansmen and Nazis.
The article did, however, call the people bleating knee-jerk reactions sheeple. If you feel that this is an unwarranted insult, I suggest that you consider carefully the way in which this claim was introduced.

Vicky Thorne December 3, 2009 at 1:44 pm
I went back and looked, you’re right, Arbitrary, it does say in the article that “feminists use the label “misogynists” on men to try to make them seem equivalent to Klansmen and Nazis” as you put it. Thank you for pointing this out.Sheeple? Sheep-people or she-people? I’ve never heard that term before.Also, which claim? My claim about circular reasoning or the article’s claim about misogyny?
“Instead, we look to you and say, if we are Misogynists…SO WHAT?!”“SO WHAT?!” It offends a lot of women, that’s what. That is why so many people are complaining here.
“If we are what you call “Misogynist,” it is only so because we are reacting to a society and culture that has embraced Misandry as an acceptable cultural value.” If it is”an acceptable cultural value”, why are so many people objecting? It is because they do not feel it is acceptable, so it is a change in society. Therefore it is becoming not acceptable and you should realize that. If you want to decry the notion and file objections, go ahead; but keep in mind that many people will reply to this sort of thing as they have.

Arbitrary December 3, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Sheeple is a portmanteau combining sheep and people, and I was referring to the original article’s claim.
And I’m afraid that I honestly don’t care if telling the truth offends people; better to tell the truth and offend someone than to lie and hurt people in order to make a select few feel better about themselves, or to stand silently by as others do the same.
If telling the truth makes me a misogynist, I’m prepared to accept that label.

Vicky Thorne December 3, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Perfectly admirable viewpoint, and really that’s what this whole thing is about, right? Telling the truth as you see it? Cultural movements like femisim get started because the collective truth of a majority is changed.

Still unhappy about that

You remember those people in the last two posts, the one guy who had the 'shaming language' thing going on and the other guy with circular logic?
Their arguments have just been entirely deflated.
How?
The writer of the original Star Treck, the classic, the one with William Shatner as James Kirk and Spock and Uhura the communications operator and Doctor McCoy and Scottie from the "Beam me up, Scotty" fame, was DC Fontana.
Full name: Dorothy Catherine Fontana.
The writer of Star Trek was a woman. Tell me again how women are ruining science fiction?

Also: Ursuala K Le Guin. Andre Norton. Madeleine L'Engle.

More responses to other's writings

The article today? The War on Science Fiction and Marvin Minsky.
Read it and return

Response:
So I cannot possibly like science or technology and must like romance because I am female? I must be more attracted to relationships than real-world issues? I am not allowed to dream or think of the future becuase I am female? I am not allowed to be intelligent because I have a slight genetic difference?
The reason there are less visible female readers, fans, and writers in science-fiction and comics is because of people like you, Pro-male/Anti-feminist Tech. We take abuse dealt out by people like you and some leave when they refuse to take it anymore, and then obviously it is because we are female and not because you feel somehow threatend by us; and you don't even bother to acknoweledge that you are not taking the same kind of critisim and flame and abuse back.
There are less women working in science-oriented fields for the same reason. Cultural conceptions have held it as common knoweldge for centuries that men were superior to women, and obviously you still hold this belief.
Also: "whiny men who were genrally unable to find their way out of a wet paper bag"? Guess what women and girls in nearly all and any media since time immemorable have been? That. Those uncomfortable feelings you've got after seeing these men so characterized? Those are the same ones that many females have had for quite a long time now. Perhaps it is time to find your misplaced sense of empathy which, I am told, is essential to the survival of the human race.
SciFi changed its name to Syfy to escape B-list movie associations and to try and draw in more veiwers who would otherwise not want to set foot in the genre for fear of being called a geek or a nerd. If you feel the need to blame someone for the "more drama" focus of science-fiction now (if there is any, I'm not sure at this point), blame the people who made melodramas and reality TV shows popular.
Those three gay characters you were complaining about? Diversity in action. Do you also complain about racial diveristy? Diversity in general has been a touchstone and defining point in science-fiction for almost the entire history of the genre, understandable and even nessecary when you are writing about many and varied disparate cultures and races dispersed around the universe. Also known as aliens. If aliens are not diveristy, then what is?
Please get over your apparent obsession with "manly men". Those are the worst sort of men.
I would also like to address all these concerns to Sean_MacCloud.
Please, why don't you fall back on the time-honored tradition in science-fiction of inclusion no matter what the differences (that was almost the whole premise of Star Trek: explore to discover new cultures and how to work with them) and apply it to your lives.

PM/AFT; consider yourself Bingoed by virtue of There aren’t many women working in mainstream comics(science fiction, in this case) because they’re just not good enough.